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COP Scoring Remarks in IFS Magazine

Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 10:30 pm
by kittykins
I got the April edition of IFS magazine a couple of days ago and there was an article in there where Elvis was dissing the Code of Points. I have to admit I was rather disappointed in the remarks made. I guess I remembered that he felt that way but didn't realize that he was still holding onto it, when the newer scoring system has been so successful. :roll: I thought he was coaching??!! I think he was, but it seems he's dropped it because it was too complicated and he'd have to take courses to coach. I see his points on a couple of things in that whenever there is a change you lose something. Okay the 6.0 added interest and excitement, but what did it mean?? No one is perfect obviously...no program is perfect..there's always something you could do better. I never liked the Ordinal system because I saw too many skaters not getting credit for many elements and transitions, and others being unfairly rewarded. Brian Orser would be the perfect example in my mind of someone that was cheated by the old system. It was too subjective and I like the newer system so much better, finding it more objective. I know some people think skaters all look the same but is this true?! Sure it's complicated, but the sport itself is complicated. At least if skaters do an element, they will know it will be identified and they will be graded on it, and it won't just be for nothing. I know for me I hardly ever feel the wrong person won. Has anyone else read the interview in question? Thoughts...agreements or disagreements? I just couldn't believe after so many years he's still yakking about it...this coming from an Elvis fan! :lol:

Re: COP Scoring Remarks in IFS Magazine

Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 11:54 am
by Judy
I haven't read the article but know that Elvis, under the old system, paid a huge penalty. Think it was the 1996 Worlds in Edmonton that he fell in the short and put himself out of the medals. In those days the ordinal system and some inherent judging bias put you out of the medals if you finished below 5th in the short.

In 1995, in Birmingham, I remember he fell (two hands down but not on his bum) on the quad toe. He was given a 6 for technical merit by one judge. There was much discussion and some anger in the stands. How could he be given a 6 when he fell? The answer was that that judge had run out of room and had to give him a six in order to place him first.

I think a lot of the originality has been lost, especially in singles, along with that some of the excitement, and for me, interest.
Code of Points has certainly taken the sport in a new direction. It is a lot more difficult!

Re: COP Scoring Remarks in IFS Magazine

Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2019 12:43 am
by kittykins
Thanks for your thoughts Judy. I remember the incidents you describe, now that you mention them. That certainly shows flaws with the old system, but you're right on your other points as well. In many ways the new system is like a well oiled machine with very few warts. The old system had many warts and problems, but it was likely more likeable in some ways. I never liked the old system for the type of reasons you describe, but I might be in the minority.

Re: COP Scoring Remarks in IFS Magazine

Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2019 7:03 pm
by fred
I think the 2010 Olympics had Tessa & Scott skating a nearly perfect program. I would hate to have to fault it in any event, but I do believe that the new system was brought in for one purpose only, and that was to give judges a place to hide when they gave biased marks. So I'm not a great fan.

Re: COP Scoring Remarks in IFS Magazine

Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 9:40 pm
by kittykins
fred wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 7:03 pm
I think the 2010 Olympics had Tessa & Scott skating a nearly perfect program. I would hate to have to fault it in any event, but I do believe that the new system was brought in for one purpose only, and that was to give judges a place to hide when they gave biased marks. So I'm not a great fan.
Aren't the judges marks always listed, and the judges are introduced at the beginning of the event(?), so I am unclear how they are hiding. I think if anything they have more accountability and are forced to be more objective than subjective. I do think this was the perception or the actual case when the system was introduced, but that's been improved over time imho.

Re: COP Scoring Remarks in IFS Magazine

Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 10:02 pm
by Elizabeth
The judges for each part of an event are introduced and their country is announced and published. Their scores are part of the official protocols and they are no longer "shuffled". There is one person who actually provides "enhanced" protocols after events via Twitter, showing the country flag above each column of scores.

There can still be national bias or regional bias but it is more obvious and can actually be penalized when the official after-event reviews take place, for example, if the judge can not substantiate a reason for their score being out-of-line.

Re: COP Scoring Remarks in IFS Magazine

Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 4:23 pm
by fred
I'm not convinced. The public knowledge of which judges go with which mark was something that I had thought we'd lost. If that's the case now, then it's an improvement.

Re: COP Scoring Remarks in IFS Magazine

Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 6:16 pm
by Elizabeth
fred wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 4:23 pm
I'm not convinced. The public knowledge of which judges go with which mark was something that I had thought we'd lost. If that's the case now, then it's an improvement.
There is a very comprehensive scoring analysis site, www.skatingscores.com, which provides this type of information via Twitter as soon as protocols are available from skating events. You can follow them - @SkatingScores

On their website they have all kinds of statistics, over time, by event, by skater, etc. Here is an example from the free dance at 2019 Worlds for Papadakis & Cizeron - you will see that the national federation of each of the judges is identified across the top with their scores beneath:
http://skatingscores.com/2019/wc/long/f ... e_cizeron/

You can search their site for lots of things and they even have tools for calculating what a program should be worth technically, using base values of elements, I believe.

Re: COP Scoring Remarks in IFS Magazine

Posted: Tue Apr 30, 2019 8:25 pm
by fred
Well, maybe with "Speedy" gone, things have improved.

Re: COP Scoring Remarks in IFS Magazine

Posted: Thu May 09, 2019 12:08 pm
by kittykins
Well, probably, lol.

One point I want to make, is in the past we knew openingly which judge was from what country, but this in no way prevented them from cheating. In fact many almost flaunted it like when it became apparent that there was Block Judging going on. My point is that knowing who gives what mark in no way really reduces cheating. However, I think with the newer judging system it reduces cheating by throwing out the top and lowest marks which might be given out of bias. Also, it's very possible for the referee of the event to see or track a pattern with certain judges. It's all recorded...no hiding now. I guess I don't agree with Elvis, but I always found the 6.0 to be given rather subjectively at times. The sad reality is it's almost impossible to be perfect...there's always room for improvement. So for me at least it was confusing what exactly the 6.0 "meant". If judges gave a skater a 5.9 and someone came along who was "better" then they got the 6.0. Another thing that I never liked is that the short program pretty well decided the event because it was pretty well impossible for them to win if they were too low in the SP. Now it's more exciting imho as sometimes skaters can come back and win.

Re: COP Scoring Remarks in IFS Magazine

Posted: Mon May 27, 2019 8:22 am
by fred
Well the new system guards against an individual judge cheating, but I think that was never the case. The corruption came from the top down. An individual judge was never really the threat. Block judging meant that many judges were organised by some power. Giving the referees, and the ISU oversight of which judge voted which way and not the public was putting the foxes in charge of the chicken house. If there is now public visibility, then that's better.
The results seem less biased than they were, to me anyway, so something must be improved, at some point along the way.

Re: COP Scoring Remarks in IFS Magazine

Posted: Wed May 29, 2019 1:11 am
by kittykins
Ok, you made some good points. I don't think it's going to be possible to make it better than it is now. Judges can be identified as not judging correctly. It seems there isn't much talk of corrupt behaviour or controversy in the skating world these days. Some, like Elvis, seem to feel that brought interest to skating. I'd rather do without all that and I'm glad the concentration is on the skating and not the judges so much anymore.